| Author | Message | ||
     Syb Rating: N/A |
Hi all, Do we really have access to true SVGA HMD's? [readable text?, usable for hours at a time in windows?] I am *seriously* considering purchasing a Cy-Visor 3D [or I-Glasses SVGA 3D]. I plan to add Headtracking and use the setup mostly for software development under both Windows & Linux, in OpenGL. I also intend to hook it up to my iPAQ. I'm keen to hear any comments comparing the I-Glasses 3D to the Cy-Visor 3D. Note, that I'm only really interested in the 3D models and as far as I now, I can add an InterTrax2 to either unit at a later date. Neil Axe had some nice things to say about the I-Glasses unit but I'd particularly like to hear from anyone with hands hands-on experiance with the Cy-Visor. (Perhaps someone from one of the retailers?) ==== Key Features I can identify: * Both claim true 800x600@>60hz for *each* eye! * Text _should_ be readable - Neil's comments about suggest it is on the I-Glasses unit. * Both units are >30deg (diag) FOV, with the Cy-Visor @31.2deg and I-Glasses @26deg Diag. * Both claim great audio quality, but is it good enough for "3D" Audio? [like as good as typical Sony Headphones?] * The Cy-Visor can be battery powered, up to 6hrs according to a spec for InfoLithium batteries on the MindFlux.com.au website. This is crucial for PDA/Wearable usage, or enjoying personal entertainment whilst on public transport or in-flight. * Lightweight. Both units sound light enough to carry around. The VFX3D was a bit heavy as I recall. * Good Virtual Image Size: I-Glasses: 76" @13' = 193.04cm @3.96m (???) [MindFlux say = 90cm @2m] Cy-Visor: 44" @6.56'(?) = 111.76cm @2m I think I'll have to post another message later with a table of spec's for comparison. ==== Additional Info: Googling tells me that a contact email for Cy-Visor enquires is: sjchoi@dyenc.co.kr ==== So which is better, and why? What scenarios suggest one might be better than the other? [Let's try and stick to the currently available facts and not speculate too much on the X-Viewer, (unless Steve@IIS has something to add).] I hope to stimulate some disscussion here about the current state of Stereo HMD, so let's hear what you think!.... | ||
| Neil Axe Rating: N/A |
Syb, I too would love to hear from someone who actually owns and uses a Cy-Visor 3D. In my opinion, that would be the best source of information. Unfortunatly finding someone has been almost impossible. That is why I decided to finally reveal the mystery behind the i-glasses svga 3d, and I'm hoping someone can do the same with the cy-visor 3d. | ||
| Steve@IIS Rating: N/A |
I guess my only comments would be, why would you want to wear an HMD for hours at a time for software development purposes vs. a large monitor? And why would you need tracking at all for working in Windows, where it is neither 3D nor tracked? I don't know if I would want to wear any HMD, including any of ours, for hours of programming. Last question, unless I missed something it should be nearly impossible to plug any HMD into an iPAQ with available software/hardware. You would need a re-sizing engine running in the background to reformat the 320x180 resolution iPAQ to be readable on an SVGA HMD, you would also need VGA out, which is not standard on any PDA. Steve | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Steve you ignorant man  http://www.margi.com/ | ||
| Steve@IIS Rating: N/A |
Thnaks Anon. We make a Windows CE PDA and a wearable and I am very familiar the Margi card, but I did not believe that, because of the resolution difference it would work with an standard HMD. Like I said above, not standard on any PDA. Last time I checked, Margi was not standard with the iPAQ. But I see that i-glasses says it is compatible with many PDA's so I stand corrected. What about my other comments, does anyone else think they will use a HMD for hours at a time, working in Windows in 800x600 resolution? Steve | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I probably would not wear one for hours at a time for Windows use. I would defintely use one hours at a time for games and graphics programs, especially if 3D or tracking was avialable and easily implemented. -Kevin | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Margi is a compactflash card and compactflash cards are standard with most any PDA Steve, you again stand corrected. For a manufacturer you sure do not know the market very well. | ||
| Steve@IIS Rating: N/A |
LOL, thanks again, actually, the Margi card is a CF Peripheral, that plugs into the CF slot of your PDA, for an extra $199. Again, not standard and that was my whole point, sorry for the confusion. Have you actually ever tried an HMD with a PDA and a Margi card? Steve | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Steve, I saw a person wearing a vfx3d plugged into an Ipaq at the bus station last week. You dumb ass. He said he would some day rule the world and make quake III run with tracking on his Linux "re-embedded" handheld. Bob Schmeckalknocker | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
a CF Peripheral is a CF Card numb nuts! The confusion is all on your side. Plug a CF Peripheral in your bung-hole and let me know if it feels like a CF Card or a CF Peripheral  | ||
| tj Rating: N/A |
Boy it's too bad this board isn't moderated, or that we can't "mod down" ugly comments like that. Talk about running a good thread into the ground! :-( Anyway... Steve, I would think that you'd *want* to give users a reason to use HMDs for hours at a time, thus making HMDs (i.e., your product) indespensable! The idea is to eventually have a HMD that's so comfortable (physically and visually) that it could replace your 30 kilogram 21 inch CRT, or that 15 inch LCD screen on your laptop that you can't see at a decent angle because the moron in the airline seat in front of you is fully reclined. Plus, your batteries last longer because you only have to backlight/drive 2 square centimeters instead of 120 square inches. Then, the fact that you can head track it (leading to potentially "unlimited" screen real estate, if you do it right) and provide stereo 3D (simply by the nature of how a HMD is designed) is icing on the cake! Try doing all that with a monitor... and that's just the beginning. I hope I can see some of these new HMDs -- hopefully in the InterSense booth at SIGGRAPH, which I'll be at. I've seen the Cy-Visor, but I wasn't completely impressed. I have yet to see the new I-Glasses model. If I do, I'll try to write about 'em here. SIGGRAPH will be in late July. | ||
| Neil Axe Rating: N/A |
Well I may be the only one in the world, but I use my i-glasses svga 3d for more than just play. Why? you may ask. Well, I like to kick back on my couch with my wireless keyboard and wireless optical mouse, put my feet up, and do some hard-core programming and web development. Until I got my i-glasses svga, my monitor was just too darn far from my couch for me to see, let alone attempt something precise like graphic editing. But the i-glasses svga changed all that! Now I can code/design in a relaxed position withough sacrficing image quality. Yes call me lazy, but I like to use technology in unorthodox ways. Oh, and I also wish this thread could stay on topic. I want to hear from someone who actually owns a cy-visor 3d. Come on, there has to be SOMEONE! | ||
| Steve@IIS Rating: N/A |
Good comments. TJ, I never said I didn't want people to wear HMD's for hours at a time, I am just trying to get an idea of what other people outside this office envision using it for. The airplane example is one that I see being incredibly popular. I also think using the tracking in certain environments to create unlimited real estate as you put it, has great promise. I think about stock brokers with 5 screens around them etc. Keep the comments coming Steve | ||
| craig Rating: N/A |
Steve, Any new's on the X-viewer? | ||
| craig Rating: N/A |
News not New's... And how about a HMD with spell checker? | ||
| syb Rating: N/A |
I should be studying for my exam on Thursday, so I'll try and keep this brief. I made my initial post here v. late at night, and was perhaps did not explain well enough some of the things I mentioned. I'll try and fix that here - or in a new thread - and address some of commments/questions above. My Interest in Stero 3D stuff: ============================== Initially - for fun or profit or both - I believe it should be a priority of anyone in this field to make some effort to reduce/eliminate the obstructions to wider acceptance of Stereo 3D. Personally, my interest in 3D and "advanced" HCI is based on a need to break out of the limiting confines of the current predominating WIMP GUI's like Microsoft Windows, X-Windows and Mac-OS. I am committed to life-long learning as a student of vast amounts of information in many fields as well as a keen believer in the advancement humanity thru technology. I would like to visulise and share vast amounts of information with others in a online 3D virtuality & augmented reality - for fun & profit and distributed education. [Grand Goals, I know!] In talking to ppl these past several years about 3D GUIs and more intuitive interaction with *information* I have found that most are not aware of the limitations of today's UIs. Problems I want to fix: ======================= From ^above^ points, I am conviced of 3 things: 1) That 2D WIMP GUIs impose a limit on the size, complexity and types of visulisation of data and information, be that stock market graphs/spreadsheets or the *entire* Human Genome: http://acg.media.mit.edu/people/fry/genomenatlpark/ [WARNING: 497KB Gif Image! *smile*] 2) 3D (Stereoscopic) Hardware will not become a 'consumer' product until there are applications that take advantage of spatial information that 3D hardware can provide, and there is a 'standard' environment in which to run these applications. 3) People's imaginations are being stiffled so much by the *completely* pervasive WIMP GUI paradigm that they will not understand the benifits of 3D until they can try it HANDS-ON(!) for themselves in an intuitive (and affordable) way. I'm very pleased that Steve's open to comment on how we (consumers) can use HMD technology. I think it is an imporant enough topic that I'll start another thread about it! :-) Hey, Is This Off-Topic or What?!?!?!? ===================================== So, you read all that background info and you are asking, "What has a true SVGA HMD - such as the I-Glasses SVGA or the Cy-Visor got to do with this?" ... My answer is that they *should* provide the minimum quality required for doing more than just specialist apps, games or video! AND I think they are just barely affordable for indviduals interested in programming an environment & applications that consumers will want find appealing - if Marketed succesfully. Creating greater demand for the hardware should drive the per-unit cost to consumer down. Now we'd all like cheaper quality HMDs right? :-) Finally, My Plans!: =================== I have preliminary plans to form a Company (and associated community) to developing (mostly) OpenSource software for 3D Hardware to break the "Catch-22" problem of 3D Hardware sales. That is, 3D Hardware needing software to use it but such (commercial) software needs a large enough install base of 3D Hardware to sell well. BUT, ofcourse I need some good Gear to get started with and so a Cy-Visor+Intertrax2 should be just good enough! :-) [I hope] I came here hoping to get *some* info or better still a proper HANDS-ON(!) review of a Cy-Visor because Neil Axe already has the I-Glasses SVGA 3D to tell us about. If Neil Axe can convince me (some more, *grin*) with a detailed review that the I-Glasses SVGA are as good as he says, then I'm prepared to bet $1989USD that the Cy-Visor 3D is as good, or better! [And get a InterTrax2 later...] Then, once I get a Cy-Visor, this community can have 2 detailed *independant* reviews of the currently most advanced Stereo HMD's that consumers can (almost) afford. This would be good! ;-) | ||
| syb Rating: N/A |
Ah, for a bit more relevant info about me, I'd just like to add... Past Experiance with VR/AR Gear: ================================ I had hoped last year that the VFX3D would meet my reqs and I did "test drive" a demo model of the VFX3D from MindFlux.com.au in Jan 2001. I obtained the demo unit to garner interest in it at a 300+ Gaming Lan. The reaction from the mostly older teenager demographic was almost exclusively, "Wow cool! How much?... oh, well the quality/rez ain't good nuff for that price, I can't afford it." Though *very* impressed with the stereo effect and the overall technology, I had had high hopes and was sadly disappointed that I could not read text - even in game text was barely legible. It seems modern games expect true 800x600 on average, with appropriately smallish font sizes. So I think we need legible text even to play modern games properly. Now though... for same price the specs "on paper" that I'm reading suggest that for (almost) same price a 8x(!) better image quality (1440k pixels compared to 180k in a VFX3D). Ok, granted that the VFX3D included a good tracker & cyber-puck worth [$XXX USD, Steve?] for the same price... but still, _8_ times the number of pixels has me excited! :-) [Question for Steve@IIS: Was the demo VFX3D model I tried faulty as it was not displaying the bottom ~5-10% of a game's screen in Stereo? 2D mode was fine. e.g. I tried Half-Life but could not see the life/weapon info at the bottom of the screen.] | ||
| syb Rating: N/A |
TJ, great to hear that you'll be at SIGGRAPH and may be able to review one or more of these 3D SVGA HMD's! Subject to some up-coming expenditures, I'm planning to make a purchase in mid-to-late July so I'm very keen to hear any news from SIGGRAPH. You said you've already tried the Cy-Visor... ...Can you *please* share anything about why you were not "completely impressed"? Like, did you have some high hopes that it would look like a nice 44inch plasma screen viewed @ 2meteres, in 800x600?... and it was more like a mediocre quality rear projection TV? Was it the 3D version, Cy-Visor DH-4400VP-3D (aka 3D-i-visor)? Did you have trouble configuring it? [e.g. The adjustible IPD with that front wheel knob.] What did you actually get to see whilst using the Cy-Visor Unit? [PC Game/App or PAL Video or NTSC Video, S-Video or RGB?] Did it look like the unit pictured in close-up detail at this URL: http://www.cgsd.com/SonyHMDpages/Details.html ==== Also, what might your (spec) requirements be before you would purchase a Stereoscopic HMD? | ||
| tj Rating: N/A |
Howdy Syb! Hey I like your enthusiasm... please keep it up! Okay I must admit that it is a little unfair for me to be making statements about the Cy-Visor when the last one I actually tried was at SIGGRAPH 2000 (in the InterSense booth). (I've been out of touch with this "scene" for nearly two years due to JobFromHell™, which fortunately, I've since escaped! :-) The Cy-Visor I tried was the 2D version. Maybe they've improved it since then, I don't know, so take my opinion with a grain-o-salt of course (especially since I'm doing this from old memory)... I might've posted some of my observations about it here before, so I'm sorry if some of this is redundant... First of all, I own a Sony LDI-D100B, so I might be a little biased. I was anxious to try the Cy-Visor because it was one of the first commercial HMDs to use Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCOS) microdisplays - displays that are reflective instead of transmissive (which the Sony uses). My first impression when I picked up the Cy-Visor was that it felt somewhat plasticky and cheap. When I put it on, I didn't think it felt very solid (not like the Sony, its housing and stems which are made of magnesium). Yet for the lower price, maybe those particular aesthetics can be forgiven. The image certainly was bright and clear (probably comparable to the Sony), but the FOV seemed somehow narrower (although I'm not sure it's much different than the D100B, but that it was less was my impression). One thing that was annoying, however, was that one of my eyes could see a band of white pixels along the edge of one display (I don't know if they were "on" pixels or the side of the LCOS chip somehow reflecting). I tried using the IPD adjustment dial (which the Sony doesn't have), but I couldn't get it to fix the problem, nor could I notice much difference (maybe it was broken?). As I recall, the HMD was hooked to a PlayStation 2 running a somewhat simple graphical demo (maybe bees (sprites) inside of a hive (skybox)? which you could look all around and see?)... I'm thinking it was S-Video input. There was some text on the screen, but I didn't see the HMD running a windows desktop at 800x600, so I'm not exactly sure how actual PC text would've looked. My impression, though, given the clarity of the displays (and comparing from memory with my Sony SVGA HMD), was that such text would've been easily readable, similar to the Sony. Sorry I can't be more precise. I'll try to make a better assessment the next time I see the Cy-Visor, or ask to connect it to different inputs. I'm considering buying one too (or the i-Glasses), so I'm concerned about these things too. I was waiting for the 3D model of the Cy-Visor, then I wanted to look at it again. I'd like to do the same comparison as I've done with my D100B, since it's a little difficult to compare HMDs side-by-side (like you compare monitors at CompUSA). What I do is sit at my lap top, at a typical/average distance from the 15 inch screen, then slide the HMD up on my forehead, alternating between looking up and down, between the virtual HMD image and that on the laptop LCD. When I do this with the D100B, the two images are nearly identical, each as easily readable, and actually, both occupy almost the same FOV! If I can do this kind of test with the new HMDs it will give me a good reference point. We'll see. ...and while I'm mentioning LCOS displays, here's some news (perhaps sad news) for those of you interested in this kind of stuff. Zight, formerly called Colorado MicroDisplay, makers of some pretty cool LCOS displays, recently went out of business and had all assets bought by Three-Five Systems. Even more recently, Inviso, who made some cool looking HMDs, went under too and were bought by Three-Five. I hope that the players still left can hang on, and it'll be interesting to see what happens with Three-Five (a publicly traded company, BTW... which I don't own). As far as "spec requirements" I'm still wishing for: lower price, higher rez, higher FOV. Stereo 3D is a must, and without which is a waste, since you already paid to have two separate screens in front of each eye. Also, I'm all for the smaller form factors and battery power, to increase compatibility with wearable computers. I got an InterTrax2 and recently got my code to work with it. USB, no separate power cord (perfect for a Xybernaut wearable)... Awesome little tracker! Beats the heck outta the klunky InterTrax 30. I'd highly recommend it! Okay, enough! Back to work... | ||
| syb Rating: N/A |
Hi all, Just a quick update for those of you that might be interested: I'm still "on the case" with my plans to purchase a Cy-Visor 3D - now apparently marketed as "I-Visor". I'm slowly getting some 'current' quotes from suppliers with the option of shipping me an Intertrax2 mounted on the HMD. Has anyone here delt with "Computer Graphics Systems Development Corp" [CGSD] ??? I am encouraged to purchase from them because they have been around since 1990 and seem to have the largest amount of good info about the two competing SVGA HMDs (I-Visor and I-Glasses): http://www.cgsd.com/SonyHMDpages/Details.html I'll continue to post here occasionally to report my progress. Cheers, --Syb. | ||
| Neil Axe Rating: N/A |
Syb, Only problem with i-visor is the annoying bud style earphones. I don't know how other people feel about them, but I can't stand them. I was very glad when the i-glasses svga was upgraded to the built-in variety. Also, I would be very wary of the refresh rate on the Cy-Visor with regards to 3D. Keep in mind, I have not personally experienced it, so this is all conjecture, but I would think that the Cy-Visor would produce very noticable flicker when in 3D mode. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
There shouldn't be any flicker on a LCD-based HMD, as the microdisplay screens are not scanned as a CRT is, so there's no concept of phosphors dimming before the raster beam refresh. In theory, each LC display can maintain its image indefinitely, with the refresh only providing frame updates for "animation purposes" -- i.e., unless you're watching video in a window, your computer screen is static for most of its repaints every 60th of a second (& even more so for >60Hz rates)... so in theory, imagine if your display only refreshed when the screen contents changed? Seems to me like that could save some battery life! ...but I digress... Back on topic: stereoscopy on capable LCD/LCoS HMDs should be rock-solid -- no ghosting (like shutter glasses) either. | ||
| Neil Axe Rating: N/A |
Well, I understand your reasoning, but I have personal experience with the i-glasses svga enough to say that there is a definite, although minor, flicker when in 3D mode. Keep in mind I'm not talking about ghosting here. There is absolutely no ghosting. The flicker I'm talking about is of the monitor refresh variety. When in 3D mode, the i-glasses is running at 60hz. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
LCoS is monochrome display uses "sequential color" to provide full color. That is, display is lit/reflected by sequence of R G & B LEDs, shining on entire display, each flashing in turn as R/G/B image components appear on display, very rapidly. Eye persistence supposedly blends separate colors into full color, yet possibility is for flicker to still be noticable. This might be cause of flicker Neil is noticing? Maybe in 3D mode each eye LCoS operates at 30hz? | ||
| davea0511 Rating: N/A |
>LCoS is monochrome display uses "sequential color" to provide full color Hmmmmm. yes, no. LCOS is usually used in this mode to save money (less silicon real estate) and maximize brightness. It does not have to operate in this way. Regardless, I believe the frequency of the color switching is usually in the range of 100Hz or higher. If both eyes are sharing the same LCOS chip and an additional light valves are blocking out the odd images, the light valve is probably also operating at 60 Hz or more. Note that if it was 30 Hz it certainly wouldn't be "minor", especially with the odd fields being pitch black for each eye. My guess is the 'minor' flicker is caused by an harmonic between the color switching and light-valve switching. It's a shame they can't cost effectively dedicate one LCOS chip per eye. | ||
| ross@i-glasses.com Rating: N/A |
As the manufacturer of the i-glasses SVGA, and the distributor in North and South America of the i-Visor, you may contact me directly with any questions you have about either product. My email is ross@i-glasses.com |
