| Author | Message | ||
     Christoph Bungert (Admin) Rating: N/A |
Fellow 3D-fans, I will soon upload a new page entitled "Pleading for a low-cost 1-chip-DLP active-stereoscopic-3D projector". http://stereo3d.com/dlppleading.htm This thread is the place to discuss this issue. I hope you can give me some feedback. Thank you Christoph | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
I know that following models work at 60 Hz: In Focus LP350 InFocus LP650 InFocux X1 I was not able to make extensive testing of LP350 and X1, maybe they can desync after some time ... I have LP650 and it looks working O.K., only the 60 Hz flickering is simply to hi ... | ||
| Christoph Bungert (Admin) Rating: N/A |
Thank you Michal. By the way, the page is now available! Christoph | ||
| Peter Wimmer Rating: N/A |
Thanks Christoph for your initiative. You are right, a 1 DLP stereo projector is the best solution for low budget stereo projects and for comsumers. I hope some manufacturers will take up the idea. Christoph, have you ever though about doing a modification of a projector on your own? Maybe we could make a deal with a company: They give us access to the existing firmware and provide us with a projector for development. This means almost no cost for the company. The modified firmware with stereo support would be published as open source. Advantage for the company: They could sell this projector to many stereo enthusiast. Advantage for the us: A stereo projector would be available for the price of a 2D projector. I would be interested in doing such modifications, as an open source project or payed... | ||
| ToxicX Rating: N/A |
Nice summary Christoph, now we need to get these quastions out to the people that can point us in the right direction. How about starting with TI and the DLP division so that we can establish if this kind of work is for TI engineers only, or if some of the projector mfgs actually can pull this off and still keep it low budget. I would like to see a minimum specification proposal added though, before going out and demanding a shitload of features for a limited market. 640*480@120HZ and 800*600@100Hz support would be enough for a min spec suggestion, all the rest like VESA DIN3 plug, LR reversal, true interlace output for TV/DVD (something a lot of work/money is invested in to avoid) should only be a wish/extra, not a requirement. Some stuff can be handled by the glasses anyways, adding extra hardware (plugs, buttons) is unrealistic for this price range. It's also important to make sure that this kind of work can be re-usable for future products. There is little use in hacking up a firmware for a projector that won't be sold the next year and the sparepart lightbulbs are impossible to find. There is a press contact here, that's a good start: http://www.dlp.com/about_dlp/about_dlp_contact.asp Then there WAS a dude from TI answering questions in AVSForum, but I think that he stopped and I can't find the thread again. Any other ideas to get hold of DLP engineers to ask if/how this can be done? Other forums? Trade shows? Herassing them directly on the phone?  | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Christoph: Really qualified review with a lot of interesting ideas. Just a technolgic observation from my work with InFocus LP350. If it works in stereo it produce EXACTLY 1 frame delay according the source input ... It is visible as left-right eye swith in comparion to what is on monitor ... It looks like the projector need this time for digitalization of the source and projection preparation ... Such technique makes the sync. problem more easy (I can use the VESA DIN-3D sync sygnal from my Quadro 750 XGL + swith eye), but it produce probably slight audio desync ... | ||
| itsikw Rating: N/A |
Christoph, Thank you for the excellent review. You invested a lot of work in this, and it is apparent that it is driven by a sincere will to advance the 3D state of the art. I believe that I can contribute to this issue. During the years 1997 to 2000 I was a certified DLP engine developer. As such I had access to all technical data on DLP, and, more importantly, a direct access to DLP support engineers. I corresponded with them on a daily basis. My company paid a very high fee ($$$$$) to get this status. I must make a few comments that may discourage you, but may also save a lot of frustration. I do not believe that anybody will be able to get a real technical response from TI without being their customer. I am not saying they are bad guys; on the contrary, I had a very good experience with the TI DLP team. It is only economics. Their time is very precious, and they live in a very competitive environment. The real bottleneck in DLP data throughput is the DMD chip and its driving electronics. For what I know, both are designed to frame refresh rate of 60Hz. The color wheel revolution speed has no impact on this. It is technologically very difficult (expensive) to increase the data throughput. To do it, TI must see a very large market (maybe 10,000 engines per year). Aprroximately a year ago I disclosed in this forum an invention I called Rate Doubler. The idea is to use two single-chip projectors in tandem to achieve a full 120Hz frame rate. I applied for a patent on this, but decided to abandon it, and now it is in public domain. Itsik | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Just some practical notice related to my usage of InFocus LP650 in 60 Hz mode for stereo projections: - the zero ghosting looks fantastic - it is true that it is impossible to achive 100% black level (the DMD still project something for black) - the total light lose in comparison to 2D projection is about 75%. So both strong light source (2500 ANSI) and good darkening is realy strong required - the flickering is to hi especialy for bright scenes. You should not use to much bright. | ||
| ToxicX Rating: N/A |
itsik, if we can't get to the TI crew, there are the projecor companies directly, or now we got the new "EMERGING APPLICATIONS" program TI has launched to use DLP tech in other areas, check out http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/dynamic/white_papers/152_NewApps_paper_copyright.pdf for some info on the Discovery Development Kit they have. It includes "0.7 XGA DDR DMD to its full 7.6 gb/s data rate" Is this the limiting data rate? It also says: Next generation DMDs will have additional increases in data throughput as well as mirror transition speed. The 0.7 XGA data rate will be significantly increased from the current 7.6 gigabits/sec data by utilizing an LVDS data interface, enabling frame rate and/or PWM improvements. So work is being done on the limiting factors, the problem for us is to make sure that when the right DLP technology is available to the projector OEMs, someone picks it up and produces what we want, true 100/120Hz support should be sellable as 100/120Hz TVs seem to do well on that market. Another way might be to get some university to take a look at this, now that there are development kits out there, maybe this is a way to get some of the basic work started? | ||
| itsikw Rating: N/A |
ToxicX, Required data rate = (No. of bits per pixel)*(No. of pixels)*(Refresh rate). For 120Hz XGA, 8bits/color the required data rate is 2.26Gb/s. So 7.6 Gb/s seems to be more than enough. Maybe my information is already out of date, but I do not recall seeing any effort to reach a 120Hz refrsh rate in the DMD roadmap. I worked for the projector industry for a few years, and can testify that going beyond 60Hz is considered to be a very low priority task. There is simply very little market demand for that, and there are much higher priorities. For the time being we must put up with the fact that stereoscopic projection is a very small market. Therefore I think that the best way for us to proceed now is to adapt existing projectors to our needs. Hopefully, many small contributions that reduce the cost of 3D content production and display will bring us to the point at which the revolution will start rolling. This requires a lot of hard work and patience from all involved. Itsik | ||
| pmonson Rating: N/A |
Looks like V-Rex may have answered your need to some degree. http://www.vrex.com/products/vr_4200.shtml Looks like a single chip solution DLP Stereo Projector to me! Wonder how much it would set you back. | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
The key questions is probbly following: How many such units is it possible to sell? 1000 ? 10 000 ? Can enybody make a qualified quess ? I am afrad that technology is not the problem, the problem is in economical apects ... | ||
| itsikw Rating: N/A |
Anonymous is completely right. If the market volume ever becomes 10,000 per year for 120Hz DLPs, they will be manufactured. Personally I am afraid that the market volume is few hundrerds per year. This is just an intuitive guess. In addition this product will have to compete with the dual-projector passive stereo, which is available off-the-shelf, and performs quite well. Itsik | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
According the vr4200 from V-Rex. it is not on its offcial www from some reason ... in addition they do not mention the key parameter - frequence . I am afradi that it will be 60 Hz ... The 800 ANSI is too low as well. I use 2500 ANSI and it is on the edge for use in not totaly darkened room .... Does anybody have more information about VR4200 ? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Dig deeper on the website and it says something about horizontal interlace, so it's some half-resolution deal, totally different than full-rez 120Hz. | ||
| Christoph Bungert (Admin) Rating: N/A |
Concerning the economical factors it would be the best solution if Texas Instruments just puts a stereo3D-mode into the DLP-engine/chipset. So many DLP-projectors would have it at little extra-cost. The projector manufacturers would have to decide if they put a VESA-DIN-3 connector to the box or not and if they include the 3D-mode to the firmware/menu. I envision this as one more extra-feature, like digital-zoom, PiP, etc. There should be no special 3D-projectors produced in low numbers, but many DLP-projectors which have this as one of many features. Distributors/dealer could start offering bundles consisting of projector, glasses, 3D-DVD's, game-drivers. I said this before, the TI-guys play so many tricks on the DLP. The new SCR-technology is just crazy. A stereo-mode is peanuts in comparison. Christoph | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Christoph: But even the TI guy thing probably in following way: They calcluate how much will it cost to put a stereo3D-mode to the chip. Than they compare this with how much they can get back. What is the results ? I am afraid that even such a simple modification can have drastic infuence on the chip price in absolute nubers. | ||
| Christoph Bungert (Admin) Rating: N/A |
That may be the wrong attitude. Instead of delivering a few units to an existing small market, this should create a new market. 3D-DLP projection could be the first stereo-solution for small businesses and consumers, which is really GOOD. This is something people will love. This could be the first real "I want that too" 3D product. All technologies we had before just sucked. DLP solves most of the drawbacks the other solutions had. ###I am afraid that even such a simple modification can have drastic infuence on the chip price in absolute nubers.### In high volumes the extra price per chip will be low. Todays digital devices are so full of features, most of which are hardly used by anybody, so I don't think that's a major concern. There's a though fight between the LCD/LCoS fraction and TI for market share. So here is a feature which could give DLP another advantage. Christoph | ||
| GregK Rating: N/A |
I think Christoph is on the right track. Texas Instruments needs to consider a new and improved DLP projector that would be a true MULTI-SCAN projector. It would have a wide "umbrella" of uses to serve a WIDE variety of consumers. ...Remember, this is how they make money. A multi-scan DLP projector could run film produced material with greatly reduced flicker or judder. Film on NTSC (24fps after inverse telecine) could run at 72 or 96 hertz. Film on PAL (25fps) could run at 100 or 150 hertz. Interlaced shot material (50 field PAL or 60 field NTSC) could run at 100 or 120 hertz respectively. NTSC 3/2 film pull-down artifacts are eliminated. Judder effects are reduced. Home theater buffs would eat it up!! A multi-scan DLP projector could run a computer image at multiple scan rates as well, allowing one to use a DLP projector as their computer screen for long durations without eye fatigue. Imagine finishing up your favorite movie and then switching over to internet browsing or computer gaming, but without the eyestrain current DLP PJs have running at 60hz or (shudder) 50 hz. Computer buffs and internet junkies would eat it up!! Finally to wrap up this attractive multi-scan umbrella, there could be a "interlace stereo" option, that would interpolate 50 or 60hz field-sequential 3-D material to 100 or 120 hz. Adding this option to a multi-scan monitor capable of line doubling would be an easy extra that would allow flicker free 3-D for hospitals, museums, etc etc. And oh yes, .. a variety of 3-D home entertainment uses. Finally just like progressive scan sets and DVD players offer different progressive scan conversion options (auto, video, film), TI could offer an "automatic" conversion mode where the projector analyzes the incoming video signal and makes it's best guess (what most people would use and enjoy) as to the best scanning rate to use. Or one could pick a "forced rate" mode like "interlaced 3-D" or "NTSC film", or "native PC scan mode" for example, as no automatic best guess system is 100% perfect. Trust me, if Texas Instruments drops the DLP ball on this one, there eventually WILL be another company that will not. Then TI will have to play the catch up game. -Greg Kintz- WPTA-TV | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I agree that a single projector would be valuable new 3D product. A market has to start somewhere, how many projectors could TI expect to sell per year? Flicker glass sales might be a reasonable measure of consumer interest in 3D at home. How many flicker glasses are sold to consumers each year? How many 3D DVDs are sold each year? | ||
| Christoph Bungert (Admin) Rating: N/A |
Infocus: PAL-3D does work So far I thought digital projectors have a fixed native frequency, which is usually 60 Hz. I found out that my Infocus LP70 goes to real 50 Hz native when used in PAL-mode via the video connector. PAL-3D-video does work and the flicker is heavier than with NTSC. The sync is at least as good as in NTSC. I've got a 'screen check' photo sensor device which is supposed to measure the refresh rate of CRT-monitors and the flicker of neon lights. If I point it at the projection screen into a red, green or blue field it gives me 120 Hz for NTSC-video/PC and 100 Hz for PAL-video. (White and mixed colors give strange or no results. In PC-mode it stays at 120Hz, no matter which frequency I throw at it.) So I believe the speed of the color wheel actually changes while I go to PAL, which shows that changing the native frequency on the fly is already a reality. Christoph | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Christoph is their any ghosting in your PAL-3d video Infocus Projection? | ||
| Christoph Bungert (Admin) Rating: N/A |
Yes, some red-ghosting and maybe some green. That's a timing problem. If I had a TV-shutterglasses controller with adjustable time-gap, to compensate for the digitizing-delay in the projector it would be perfect - apart from the flicker. Christoph | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
There has been no new posts for over a year on Christoph Bungert's well thought out plan (plea) for a a low-cost 1-chip-DLP active-stereoscopic-3D projector at http://www.stereo3d.com/dlppleading.htm Has there been any progress made on such a projector? Philip Steinman Stereo Club of Southern CA | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Tried edims newest driver with a disabled Nvidia Stereo driver with my dlp projector set up. Horrible. Didn't work properly on all settings. Real shame. This is not to say that people with other cards than Nvidia would not have a different experience. But for a: 6800, Win XP, Nvidia Stereo driver disabled Output a DLP projector at 800*600 or 1024 Native 60Hz set for either LCD1, LCD2 or CRT. Driver settings tested interlaced, normal/reveresed, page flip Doesn't work Nvidia stereo drivers work very well for 1024 native (cropped screen) and 800*600 some blue ghosting (minimal) Thought you guys should know. Philip - there is a lage thread about DLP projectors...many of us have X1's and X2's working well... Unclebob | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
The new InFocus DepthQ™ 3D video projector http://www.depthq.com/ | ||
| Abraham Shpitz Rating: N/A |
Hi I own an Infocus X1 and would like to try it in the 3D page- flipping mode. My Equpiment : PC P4 1.4GHZ nVidia GeForce4 MX440, X3D extereme system Dongle + LC shutter glasses. Do I have any chance to obtain resonable 3D ? at what V refresh? | ||
| Anon Rating: N/A |
Why wouldn´t a dual chip be an alternative? I mean wouldn´t it be efficient to produce respective eye on a separate chip on the right angle to be able to skip the flipping of a single DLP, which at higher refresh rates could give unwanted color effects and such? | ||
| Anon Rating: N/A |
Then you would also be able to produce a passive stereo with little means, which infact are passing more light to your eyes. The ghosting would not be that much of a problem. | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Anon: I belive it will work ... for double price. Btw. InFocus DepthQ can produce passive stereo as well - in combination with Z-screen active filter (circular polarization) ... | ||
| darkbluesky Rating: N/A |
Quote: M.H. said, "- the total light lose in comparison to 2D projection is about 75%. So both strong light source (2500 ANSI) and good darkening is realy strong required " But if a 2500 lumens + good darkening is "really strong required" (for me it means almost indispensable), this would put the Infocus DepthQ out of the game!, with its theorically "only" 1600 max ANSI lumens!... Or I have misunderstood something? | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Quote: In the past the CRT projectors with 400 ANSI were used for 3D active projection. They are still used in CAVE instalation for projection on 2x1.8 m screens area. So 1600 ANSI is realy not bad. Genrealy in combination with a 2.2 gain screen the InFocus DepthQ works perfect with 2m wide screen under good darkeingn condition. Under sub-optimal light condition it is neccesary to use smaler proejection area .. Have a look on this for more information about this topic: http://www.depthq.com/faq.html#Q1-11 P.S. - the 75% light lose is partialy compensated by good shuterglasses usage reducing ambient light influce, so this number must be handled with reserve ... | ||
| darkbluesky Rating: N/A |
Well, tx for the answer, although I don't understand very well, The infocus LP650 was a DLP XGA with 2500 lumens...so I guess you mean that although 1600 lumens will not allow to see it in active 3D with the brightness of a non-glasses image, it could be darker but still acceptable with a pretty good set-up (screen size/type, ambient light, glasses). Therefore if you search for a real brightness in active 3D, you should go for a 2500 minimum lumens projector + good conditions. I guess this could be the conclusion...? Another Q's. I see in the FAQ of DepthQ, two images of rear projection in a high luminance environment; I'm surprised of the good blacks and saturation shown, please could you say me what screen could be the one shown? (maker, type-model, or similar?) I'm really interested in rear projection, because I'm thinking in 3D projection mainly for a flight sim, so you must be in front of the screen and not too far of it (about 1 m far for 1 m width). Tx | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
darkbluesky: everything depens on - screen size, screen gian and ambient light. Even 400 ANSI projector can work perfect with small hig gain screen. There exist a matematic aparate for modeling your cinema conditions telling what will work and what not. The screen on the DepthQ WWW for rear projection is a standard material for rrear projection - white colored model with 2.0 gain. It look so perfect becouse the screen is not big. Under beter ambient light condtion it could be 2m big and still O.K. | ||
| Ben Stepanyan Rating: N/A |
Dear Sirs, The Engineering Agency “AntenNet” (Dnipropetrovs'k, Ukraine) within the scope of StereoStep- project, joint with the National space agency of Ukraine, - has developed simple optical system which provides the manifestation of autostereoscopic effects in order to view dimensional (volumetric) images without spectacles, helmets, additional or specially equipped monitors, without necessity of unnatural vision focusing and with sufficiently free spectators displacement relative to the image. The mentioned system property pertains to both static, and dynamic (video) pictures. The system stipulates not firm precision positioning on the screen/image and represents either compound transparent film, or compound layer built-in into the image carrying screen. Both system variants allow passive (without any external control), or controlled compound realization. In this case, the hang-on passive system variant completely excluded the necessity in any design modifications of image carrier, i.e. the system is completely compatible with any existing 2D equipment. The preliminary calculations ascertained that specific value of this system, if manufactured in mass production (film/formatted plates), would not exceed 0.05 $/cm2. The proposed fields of application: advertising, printing trades, road signs, exhibition expositions, TV – including house TV sets – computer monitors, screens of smartphone, pocket computers and mobile telephones, scientific/laboratory instruments, technical visualization facilities in education, defense applications, technical vision of robots, geoinformational equipment, video models in geology, architecture, design etc., car/aircraft instrument boards, built-in indicators of household equipment, instrument panels of industrial equipment, trainers-simulators, slot machines and game attachments, toys/souvenirs, articles of house and office interior etc. In connection with above stated, as well as in view of branch specialization of Your company, the owner of know-how - Engineering Agency "AntenNet" offers a co-operation to You in mass production of Stereo-Step film and/or autostereoscopic devices for 2D-appliances. We kindly ask You to sent Your offers on interest or participation in StereoStep project to the following contact details: 49052, Orlovs'ka St., 30/45, Dnipropetrovs'k, Ukraine tel./fax: +38 056 371-35-64 e-mail: antennet@antennet.org; http://antennet.org Respectfully Yours, Stepanyan Ben Gurgenovich, Odnorozhenko Vasyl' Borysovych | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Ben Stepanyn: I had seen desctiption of about 5 different autosteresocpic proejection systems in last SD&A conference proceedings. All working on verly low resolution ... So can you give some real technical detalis = per eye resolution, nuber of views, input data format and software comaptiblity ? | ||
| helene Rating: N/A |
Dear Sir, I have a camera (viviCam 3625 Digital Camera 2.1 mega Pixels) vivi corporation)in my possession,unfortunately I don't have the manual for its utilisation. I will be very grateful if you send me one(the manual viviCam 3625). Thanks. Best regards. Helene. NB I couldn't find their e-mail address. Please help me. thanks |
