| Author | Message | ||
     SamualT Rating: N/A |
I've been looking at the autostereo displays (no glasses needed.) I think it will be a decade or so before I can afford one of those ;-) However, why couldn't you just get some lenticular material and just slap it on a regular screen? Even lines go to the left eye, odd lines go to the right eye. Throw your screen into 3d-interlace mode and have instant-3d with no glasses needed. It might be tricky getting the lenticular plastic so that the little prisms (or what ever they are) are the same size as the pixels on your screen, but other than that: What am I overlooking? | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
Nothing. With noteboks and LCD monitor it works perfect. I had seen 3 of such home made 3D dispalays on the Stereo-display conference. The results were not so bad. You must only find the proper lenticualt foil fitting your LCD panel pixel dimensions ... | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
You can also use a printed "barrier" grid (which , of course, can be printed to any specification. If you join "lenticular3d" group at Yahoo you can download my little "autosteroscopic barrier kit" and try it for yourself. My homemade "auto" laptop cost me less than 10 bucks (I found the laptop in the trash!) Best Wishes, John Billingham | ||
| SamualT Rating: N/A |
I have an old laptop (Compaq Armada - about as heavy as an armada too! ;-) I may have to try that! Why wouldn't it work with a regular monitor? It seems to me a regular monitor would be brighter and work better. | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
A "regular" CRT monitor does not have a FIXED pixel size. Also, the "front glass" is TOO thick, and of uneven thickness for barrier use. If you read the text and look at my "barrier kit" a lot of these thing become "self evident" John Billingham | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
Here is where you get the "Barrier Kit" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lenticular3D/files/ You will have to "join" (big deal) John Billingham | ||
| vidmax3d Rating: N/A |
Did the "Barrier Kit" will work with my 5" portable DVD player ? Thanks vidmax3d@iol.pt | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
While this is a nice idea, Only if you can have it display a TRUE interlaced image.(at ACTUAL resolution) Most video playback results in each "field" being interpolated to full screen and shown at 60 Hz All even lines must be one image (R or L) all odd lines must be one image (R or L) Some small LCD displays don't use square pixels in rows (they may use "staggered rows") Do you know the actual resolution of your display? (count pixels with a magnifier) Good Luck. John Billingham | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
This is fascinating, thanks for the kit - i'm in the process of getting this setup - can't wait. Let me toss up a few questions: 1. Would a barrier kit work with any type of projected image (from a DLP projector) if you calcualated the pixel size based on the throw distance? 2. Assuming i set up the barrier grid correctly, could i use NVidia's stero drivers in interlaced mode to achieve 3D gaming? thanks! cbrack | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
A lot of amazing work was done in "projected barrier" images in the past. Since DLP uses 3 color "flashes" off the same micro-mirror in lieu of the 3 color bars comprising each pixel, (in an LCD) the "vertical orientation" issue is moot. I would recommend rear projection with a barrier in front. I know "Win3D" supported "vertical interlacing" (which you will need) I can't recall if the NVidea Stereo driver does it? You should be able to "figure" the "math" for separation thickness, etc for a rear projected system by interpolating from the "kit" info. Good Luck, Keep us posted! John Billingham | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
This sounds very interesting, I was following John's progress on the yahoo boards, and even downloaded the Kit tho havent tried it out yet. my interest in autostereo displays came from actually buying a Stereographics 20inch monitor around a year ago (without actually seeing it before buying) I was under the impression that this would be 'princess leia' type star wars projection ..fat chance  anyhow since then im also had the chance to play with a 50inch x3d plasma display (different technology than barrier, its something they call a wave selective filter array..my guess is it filters different color pixels,sorta like advanced anaglyph)the resulting display is good.. but the tru potential of this is definately Video projection and then sticking a huge plexiglass spacer with barrier scren printed onto it. John Im a loser at maths, any guidelines for how to go about this? or any Urls about the experiments done that you mentioned? As for just getting win3d or nvidia to do vertical interlace for these displays yes it would work.. but the sweet-spot to view is very very limited. You actually need 9 or more images spread or interlaced across the display to give you simulated holographic images. (My dreams right now are for a 9 camera minidv rig all going thru a matrix display and then to a HD recorder) more on that later! regards Clyde clyde@immersivetelevision.com | ||
| Puppet Kite Kid Rating: N/A |
I've briefly thought about the "multi-3D" view, too. Here's how I do a simple vertical interlace from a parallel pair video with VirtualDub. I wonder what would happen if you used a multiple view instead and fed it this same information. I guess someone could do some multiple cha-cha's with a digital camera and fine out. You'd have to use an AviSynth script (or two or three ;-) to get the images into a parallel string of perspectives. Something like Adobe After Effects could do it very easily: 1) Add the "Rotate" filter and rotate "Left by 90°". 2) Add the "Resize" filter and change it to the size you want (half the height). 3) Add the "UnView Fields" filter. 4) Add the "Rotate" filter and rotate "Right by 90°". P. K. Kid Non-commercial stereoscopic 3D video: (All G-Rated) http://www.PuppetKites.net | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
Hmm, Clyde, If you are interested in a "Princess Leia" thing, it might be cheaper and easier to marry Paul Simon? While a greater number of "images" per "barrier slot" reduces light (you need narrower slots) a way around might be to alternately project say: L1,R1;then L2,R2;then L3, R3, etc? you'd have a kind of "pulsed" barrier video. (oops, sorry, "faux holo"!)The narrow "sweet spot" is the price you pay for decent "depth" (compared to lents) I think it worth while. I wish P.K. would get into this, instead of obsessing over bad 3d movies with goofy red and blue glasses! : )- John Billingham | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
lol! leave him be his experiments do throw up some interesting observations! I have software that interlaces 9 unique views from things like 3dsmax and then further playback software that interlaces in realtime for the synthagraphics lent monitor (need fast cpu 3ghz with Geforce 4 ti card). But they look spectacular. Of course so far the 9 views are generated by 3d software only. in fact Ive been talking to Richard Scullion and he implemented the synthagram 9 tile mode in 3dcombine. this lets you take a normal video + depth map and then extrapolates (via his methods) the required 9 different views. Im sure it would be easy for Richard to offer a vertical 9 view interlace mode in 3dcombine using the same 9tile concept he's already done. Now im on his case to do depth map extraction from a stereo video.. need more people chasing him for that tho! PPK at one point really got me excited about the interlaced anaglyph, only the resulting purple ovetones from the red +cyan interlaced signal threw it out for practical use. I was talking to some local Ad guys here who were very interested in the pulfrich method for a publicity stunt on TV. tho im not convinced its that good versus anaglyph. Most TV is now Sat based and in MpegII and current Tv models are pretty sophistcated in color reproduction, so anaglyph should be better than what it used to be ..or so i believe... ...need to fine tune....need to fine tune... dread the day when PPK makes a breakthru and changes his signature to - Commercial! | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
ooops its PKK isnt it :D | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
John, I like your idea of the pulsed barrier scenario. Let me expand on some ideas using a lenticular/barrier method + 4 images: 1. modify shutter glasses to alternate between L1,R1 L2,R2 .... wait then that would destroy the 'two-eye' requirement for the lent effect ... 2. setup rear projection polarized w/ 2 projectors and a large lent screen in front, giving you the L1,R1 L2,R2 pair in interlaced on one projector and L3,R3 L4,R4 pair on the other .... you would have to wear polarized glasses but again i think this would kill the lent effect. so i guess the question is how the heck could you pulse more than one pair to the monitor? also, can you get four images using both horiz. and vert. lent grids as seen here: http://www.stanford.edu/~matteoja/lent.html just thinking out loud, cbrack at myrealbox dot com | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
didnt quite follow this post by anon.. but if your interested.. lenticular / barrier displays like the screen from Synthagraphics works like this: you Create around 9 images the 1st and the 9th image should ideally be at a distance as viewed by your eyes (or camera) at approx 6.5cms apart ..but in experiments with 3d software ive used distances of around 8-9cm.. now starting from the 1st image you generate inbetwen images of the 1st image with it gradually being spaced more towards the last image ..meaning you move the left camera towards the right and you do the same sequence with the right cam moving towards the left. what you have are invetween images which when interlaced and played back on a lenticular monitor will givee the image the seamless "roundness" you see as in viewing 3d lenticular pictures. (man this is a pretty pathetic attempt to explain the thing! lol anyhow get some lenticular software for posters such as 3dz etc and intelace them and put them behind the barrier grid for the lcd. the resulting image willbe far better than just a stereo pair repeated. "Pulsing" would happen if you just repeated an ordinary stereo pair a couple of times.. as i undertand pulsing = multiple sweet spots (but i could be wrong) Doing still images is east this way on a barrier lcd screen the prob starts when you try to do video. Cheers clyde | ||
| Puppet Kite Kid Rating: N/A |
Okay, that last post gave me another idea for testing "multi-view 3D video" other than stacking multiple camcorders or lenses side-by-side, which would probably be the ultimate correct solution. All you have to do to make "fake" 3D video is take 60i footage with a steady horizontal pan and delay one field. There's even a third party VirtualDub filter that does this. (read on) So... if you delay the second image by one field, the third image by 2 fields, the fourth image by 3 fields, etc... bingo, "fake" multi-view video footage is possible. Dang... I'm busy with another project... someone try it... just pan your video cam slowly one directly, then add the field delays progressively. Here's the field delay filter for Vdub: http://www.uwe-freese.de/vdubfilters.html I'm not sure, but I think the lenticluar interlacing might work by doing a typical vertical interlace of the first and second cam footage, then do a second vertical interlace of the results of that and the 3rd cam's footage, then lastly a vertical interlace of the results of that and the last cam's footage... or a variation of this theme. Again, I have the instructions for the basic vertical interlacing on my VirtualDub3D page, at the very bottom: http://www.puppetkites.net/virtualdub3d.htm PKK | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
Nice PKK.. this would work actually, sorta like a takeoff on the pulfrich method.. except you'll get lotsa retinal rivalry in a real world scenario as even small movements from your subjects such as a breeze blowing leaves, a person blinking their eyes etc will mess up the frames  | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
Here, I'll "reprint" what I posted to "3DTV": It is worth trying a simple barrier so that you can appreciate the difference between it and a lenticular. It's a bit like all the ranting about "this and that" type of anaglyph!(let alone filters!) Also, it is possible to use just 2 images to a lenticular, to achieve a better than normal "depth effect" at the expense of narrowing the "sweet spot". Of course, as I said, barriers are easier for experiments because you can make them in any "pitch" you need! Here is how to make a "4 input" vertically interlaced video which for my usage is actually a "vertical image,turned to horizontal, and horizontally interlaced) Shoot you videos with the cameras sideways, do your favorite "frame blend"(de-interlace, whatever) Sync all to the same start and end point (open 4 copies of VDub!) Interlace #1 and #2 Interlace #3 and #4 Double the size of both vids with a quality enlarger, which should result in the 1 pixel wide lines becoming 2 pixel wide lines. Now interlace the TWO videos (1+2 and 3+4) I recomend a "test image" of ,say, yellow, red, green, blue primaries interlaced to test alignment, and viewing point. Then, the easiest subject matter would be a single camera video of something rotating, (you know the gag? offset each video by a couple of frames for "stereo"!) Pup, you should have this all whipped together and tried by tommorrow Am, right? I look Forward to hearing from You When I awake tommorrow! John Billingham You'll note I had a similarly "cheep and Cheezy" idea as PKK for a quickie vid? I have made very nice "animated stereo" barriers using grids at 90 degrees to each other. There is a slightly hard to find book, an english translation of a work in Russian: "Stereoscopy" by N.A.Valyus which describes a lot of interesting work up to the 60's with cinema sized autostereoscopic projection. Things may have been better "Back in the USSR" than the West led on! John Billingham Oh, there was some trial software from Philips that made multi video interlaces "Octopus 3D-LCD"! | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
Quout "I have made very nice "animated stereo" barriers using grids at 90 degrees to each other. "... i didnt quite follow this John, can you explain .. or actually i think im just a bit slow today. Same goes for the 4 input video above.. im confused do you have 4 phsical cameras? all tilted on their sides? or is it 2 cams and you extracting the fields as separate video streams? when you get time can you document the procedure via email step by step? if you dont have time to post here that is. Another question to PKK and you, is there a vDub plugin or Premiere pkugin that will take an interlaced video (like say a interlaced dvd thats been converted to avi) and then let me extract the two fields and save them as 2 separate videos ie left and right stream? the reason I ask is that im not familiar with VDub and only now have downloaded it and looking at various filters etc. regards all! Clyde clyde@immersivetelevision.com | ||
| Puppet Kite Kid Rating: N/A |
The VDub "Deinterlace" filter will do everything you need. You can discard one field and save that, then discard the other field and save that, or unfold them to side-by-side and crop off each side. Resample them (resize) as needed. There is also a version of Vdub *around* that is called "VirtualDubMPEG2" that can open MPEG 2's or VOB's. Search google.com for it. PKK | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
Clyde: Quote "I have made very nice "animated stereo" barriers using grids at 90 degrees to each other. "... What I meant was that the vertical interlace and barrier is used for stereo, the horizontal interlace and barrier is used for motion. This can also be a combo of lent plus barrier or lent plus lent. (I'm talking about a "hand held" image here!) John Billingham | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
ahhhhh oK! | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
I need to make a anaglyphic 3D movie for school and I only have a digital camcoreder and can't spend more than $20.00. Does anyone know what the easiest way to make a anaglyph camcorder is? Please write me at Movieman000@aol.com | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
Movieman: The CHEAPEST way to make an anaglyph movie is to put your camera on a tripod, and shoot a rotating object. then, using Masuji Suto's freeware 'Stereomoviemaker" load the same video clip as "left" and "right" movie, advance one side a frame or so, then output as "half color anaglyph" The second cheapest way: Build a 4 mirror "image-splitter", then input to SMM as "side by side", output as anaglyph. You might get an "imagesplitter" on e-bay for approx 20 bucks (one of those Russian ones, used, perhaps a "stereotach") Good Luck, Your on MY kind of budget! John Billingham | ||
| Larry Elie Rating: N/A |
Hey John, back to the lenticular plastic auto stereoscopic... I know how well the laptops work with the plastic, but what about just putting the plastic in front of super-flat monitor. The dot pitches today are a fraction of the size of the plastic spacing, and if you choose a slot based (Sony) you don't even have a triad of dots. It may not work quite as well as with an LCD, but it should work pretty well; besides with a desktop I can use resolutions much higher than any laptop. Anyone try this? | ||
| John Billingham Rating: N/A |
I assume you mean a "super-flat" crt monitor? I have done "coarse resolution" barriers on a crt, but the two main problems are: 1) the SIZE of a pixel on a crt IS NOT FIXED 2) the crt tube's front glass, and protective cover glass ARE NOT a consistent thickness. AND are TOO thick for a suitable "spacing" That said, what the hell, try it anway, good luck, what you "don't know" sometimes WON'T hurt you! Best Wishes, John Billingham | ||
| Barrie Rating: N/A |
I'm no math wizard either, so any help would be appreciated; I have a 0.25 dot pitch monitor and want to try putting lenticular plastic over it to see what I get. I don't have a clue as to what lpi plastic to buy - any one have any suggestions? Barrie bbrown at iaw dot com | ||
| hd Rating: N/A |
Hi, maybe I can step into great discussion.. I also own a superflat 0,24 mm dot 19" crt and would like to know where I can find the right 'piece of plastic' to get some first 2 view based 3d.... I'm also a really experienced 3dsmax rendering artist, so if anyone has a suggestion for a 'virtual' multi (9?) camera setup (viewangle, focal length, distance etc.) I could provide some highres rendered multiview sequences for testing... p.s. I don't know much about math too, so take care:-) | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
what up folks? | ||
| MH. Rating: N/A |
hd: No way how to use CRT (pixel not unifrom distance). Only Plasma and LCD works ... | ||
| hd Rating: N/A |
..so how it works with a lcd??? where I find the right plastic for, how i set up such a 9-perspektive camera in a 3d package? | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
hd: http://www.iart3d.com/Products/Autostereoscopic%20Display/Auto3D%20Display_Eng.htm | ||
| hd Rating: N/A |
WHAT??? 449.00$ for a thin piece of platic?????? where I can get this material at standart industry prices of $,$?? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
yes, 449$ | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
Hey, what happend with this interesting thread? | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
lol! 449$ for plastic was interesting? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
ahm, no... the thread was interesting BEFORE Mr. M.H. spammed his 'we-grap-449$-for-a-thin-piece-of-plastique'-link... any ideas where else to get such material?? | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
M.H. I do not sell this material , and I am not in any relation to Iart-3D. I had give you only a link to the only one source of the material witch I know .... But becouse the world is not full of chap aoutostereoscopic monitors, I expect that to manufacture such a material is probably not trivial ... Did you thing a bit about the neccesary precision of the optics bulid in the material e.g. ? It is a bit more complex than simple lentilular foil ... Does any body from you know how the multi-view optic work ? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
ok, my fault.. I'm also well interested in knowing about the multi-view technics because this is something I havn't understand apart from 'vertical deinterlacing' for the 2 views... Anyone of the pros here can explain this? | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
MH, Anonymous.. I work with Multiview on x3d plasmas. They are im many ways similiar to Lenticular graphics. To get started.. if you took just a normal stereo image of a scene (ie 2 views) and then vertically sliced these images on a cutting board in real life (or in say photoshop on a computer) you end up getting Strips of the image.. you then alternatively laythem in columns like ImageA(first strip),ImageB(first strip),ImageA(second strip)...etc... this is as you know ..intelacing the images. Now if you you place them behind a lenticular lens(first of all pitch of lens should match with of the strips you cut..ie LPI of 20 means 20lines per inch .. or 20strips per inch in our case) When viewd at a "headon" or straight on angle you would see the 3d view of the scene. But if you tilted your head just a bit, you wouldnt... thats because the "3d friendly zone" created by your 2 images is limited. (Ihavent explained indepth how the prisms or lenticules in the lenticular sheet are diverting the lightrays from the stips ...this is more of a physics lesson) So how do we get continous 3d from a wide viewing angle? 1) we could shift the lenticuar lens horizontally in relation to where are head and eyes are positioned-- this is how headtracking auto stereo Interlaced displays work or 2) we can create more in-between views of the scene and then interace not just 2 images but typically 9 such views of a scene. systems like X3d and stereographics and maybe even the IART kit have software to interlace 9 source images or video streams that YOU provide and then interlace it at the lens pitch of the lenticular screen fitted in their monitors. (x3d dosnt use Lenticular displays, they use something else i forget the name... but it warps every red/green/blue/ pixel on the screen to a different direction in space) So mostly the hard part is getting a camera to create 9 equally spaced views of a real life scene. In computer 3d programs its easy to create these 9 views with 9 virtual cameras. Alternatively, you can settle for the "eye tracked " 2 view autostereo displays Hope this helps in a way Cheers Clyde | ||
| M.H. Rating: N/A |
M.H. I had encoded 9 view outostereoscopic ouptut for out DepthQ stereoscopic video server - so I know how it works. But I had encoded this totaly without any understanding of the optical principles (just only putting the correct pixels in the given positions)... Does anybody have an optical scheme for the multivew autostereoscopic monitor (they do not use simple lenticular foil, they use some microlens array probably) ? | ||
| Anonymous Rating: N/A |
hi thx for explanaion! can you give me some advice what is important by setting up 9 cmaeras inside a 3d package? I guess that are some points like focallenght, viewangle & distance/scale are very imprtant.. ? | ||
| clyde Rating: N/A |
Hi MH, Visit the stereographics website and search their support documents and white papers. A wealth of info there. I do know that the lenticular sheet on a stereographics display is not just "stuck on the front" its rotated at an angle, similiarly, the content is then interlaced in this "diagonal" format for alignment. This gets rid of whats called "moire patterns" for disturbance free 3d. (Philips also had patented this approach as they claim) Google them. Anony: Same advice.. visit stereographics (and even x3d's (now opticality Corporation) german website and try downloading their toolkit.. they have the necesary 3dplugins for 3dsmax and/or Maya.) these plugins will output only for their respective monitors, but you will learn a great deal along the way about 9cam setup in Cg and later for real-life shooting. Regards Clyde | ||
| cbrack Rating: N/A |
hey guys, great discussion on autostereo. sorry to chime in so late in the discussion, but wanted to follow up on one of John's intersting posts about 'rear-projecting' onto a lenticular sheet. first, the nvidia drivers can actually do horizontal interlaced with a registry hack (i can dig this up if you can't find it online) also, i noticed that you can affordably buy a large 4ftx8ft lenticular sheet here: http://www.depthography.com/screen.html couple this with a rear-project screen which i've picked up before on ebay for cheap. somehow join the two together in a sturdy frame and then project the image in mirrored-mode from behind. set nvidia to interlaced mode and then comes the hard part...exact positioning. I've found a great resource for all the math associated w/ the positioning, viewing distance, etc. here: http://www.ponies.me.uk/lentikit/wiki/index.php?title=Barrier%20Screens can't wait to try it out, please someone beat me to the punch and let us know the results! also, i've put in a request in the general forums about making an affordable autostereo kit for LCDs, please take a look: http://www.stereo3d.com/discus/messages/21/3007.html?1100927886#POST15186 | ||
| allen lecorre Rating: N/A |
Hi I am trying to make a 3D animated short film to be viewed with analglyph glasses, you know the red/blue ones. I noticed some amazing images on the website: http://www.puppetkites.net/anaglyph.htm I was wondering if someone was able to explain how to achieve those excellent results. I have been trying for a few days and end up with a lot of ghosting and very little color information. Thanks |
